Cables and Volt-Drop
A cable is such a simple thing – so what could possibly go wrong… go wrong… go wrong…
After all we’re just connecting power to our 12Volt stuff – it’s two wires, one positive, one negative, pretty simple really. Well it is and it isn’t.
DC Systems
It’s certainly true that in DC systems we only have positive and negative wires, and both voltage and current behave very nicely so we can add them, subtract them, and even multiply them if we need to. So from that angle 12Volt systems are pretty straightforward. And if we can keep our negatives together and our positives together, but also keep them away from each other, then we’re already well on our way to a workable 12Volt system. That’s the easy part.
The not-so-easy part is that we only have 12 Volts to start with – unlike 240Volt electrical systems where losing 12 Volts would probably go unnoticed. However if we lose even 1 Volt in a 12Volt cable, we have just lost more than 15% of the battery power to our cables.
So how do we avoid this Volt-Drop in our 12Volt Cables?
Volt-Drop
In 12Volt systems Volt-Drop is a really, really important thing to avoid, and is one of the most common sources of problems in 12Volt electrical systems. Fortunately the fix is pretty darn simple – we just need to get the cable size right for the device(s) that we are running. Yes, it is that simple! However unlike 240Volt systems where we choose the cable-size according to the current-draw, in 12Volt systems our main limiting factor is the Volt-Drop, and this is what will determine what size cable we need.
For the technically-minded, you might like to note that Volt-Drop goes up with increasing current, and also goes up as distance increases, but goes down as cross-sectional area (mm2) of the cable increases. For the less technically inclined we have a calculator which will work out the Volt-Drop for us – and the techno-boffins are welcome to use the calculator as well – I do…
Cable Sizes
Now, dealing with cable sizes is something we’re going to have to do if we want to choose the right size for our application. I say “going to have to do” because there are no less than 3 ways of measuring cable size – yes I know, amazing isn’t it – you’d think…
Anyway, the three cable-sizing standards are:
- For Automotive Cable, the size is expressed as mm e.g. 4mm twin Auto cable. This dimension has nothing whatsoever to do with the amount of copper in the cable – don’t ask – it’s an industry standard, and is used by the main cable manufacturers in Australia, so it’s here to stay – best thing is just to get used to it.
- Then there is the B&S standard, which is fairly widely used, and also very close to AWG (American Wire Gauge). By-the-way B&S is for Brown & Sharpe that started this system in 1855. And just to keep things interesting the B&S numbers go down as the cable size goes up, so 6B&S is a bigger cable than 8B&S.
- And then there is cross-sectional area (usually in mm2 or mm-squared) which is the only one that has a scientific basis. If you cut through a cable, this is the area of copper you will see staring back at you. It’s also the only sizing system that can be used in calculations.
Automotive cables, either single or twin conductor, are typically available in the industry-standard mm sizes of 3, 4, 5, 6, 9, 14, 20, 25, 35, 50, 70, 95, and 120. Fortunately there are tables showing equivalent cable sizes in B&S, cross-sectional area (mm2), so we can convert from one to the other. I have compiled one of those tables at the end of this article.
Volt-Drop – first know the Current
Now, to be able to calculate the Volt-Drop in a cable, we need to know how much current is flowing through that cable. There is no getting around this by guessing, so somehow or another we need to get a figure for the Amps that the device is drawing. Usually this will be in the handbook or instruction manual, either that or get hold of the manufacturer or retailer and ask them. We need a figure in Amps or in Watts (which we can convert to Amps). If it’s in Watts then for 12Volt devices the current will be Amps = Watts divided by 12 Volts. If all else fails ask a friend with a multimeter to measure the current draw for you. Also look at the article on How much power does 12Volt stuff use?
Volt-Drop and Fridges:
For fridges it’s important to use the maximum current draw to calculate volt-drop, and being a motor-driven device this will be highest on start-up. With Secop (Danfoss) compressor fridges, the start-up current is about 6-7 Amps for the smaller chest-type fridges, and for the larger and upright ones (80l and above) it’s closer to 10 Amps. For Engels, the startup current is simply the running current, because these start up slowly, so about 2.5 Amps for the smaller ones and about 4.5 Amps for the bigger ones.
So we need to make sure we don’t drop too much voltage just when the fridge is trying to start up, otherwise it’ll simply cut-out on low-voltage every time it tries to start.
This is a common fault with fridges matched to skimpy wiring – the fridge will go through a constant loop of start-stop, start-stop. Every time it tries to start, the sudden current causes the voltage to drop, and the fridge cuts out on low-voltage. Now the fridge is no longer drawing current, so the voltage rises and the fridge thinks all is ok and tries to start, so the voltage drops again and we are back to square one. I reckon if you sit around a campfire for long enough you’ll hear someone describe this exact thing – it’s that common.
Volt-Drop Calculator:
So to work out the Volt-Drop, we need the current in the cable, its size, and its length. The calculator then works out the volt-drop, based on using twin-core cable, so red & black together, for positive & negative. The cable size is the commonly available Auto cable (mm) – if you need to convert from another sizing format just use the table at the end of this post.
In 12Volt systems we aim to stay on the friendly side of the Australian Standards, which says we should have less than 5% volt-drop. For 12Volt systems that is 0.6 Volts or less.
Volt Drop: Volts
In some cases the calculator might give us one cable size that is bang-on 0.6 Volt drop and then another size that is less, say 0.4 Volts. So you've now got one cable a bit bigger than you need, and one just on the edge, so it becomes a choice between 2 sizes (or more).
If the decision is to go for the smaller cable, then it's clear how much voltage is going to be lost - and if we go with the larger cable then it's also clear how much we'll win by getting more voltage into the 12Volt device. So if it's for lights, no big deal - but for fridges (especially with a low-volt cut-out) it always pays to have as little volt-drop as practical and affordable.
Volt-Drop for inverters
Inverters draw pretty heavy currents, especially the larger ones, so it's best to try and limit the volt-drop to 0.2 Volts or less. It also helps to keep the 12Volt cables short. The input current has spikes which magnify the volt-drop effect as well, and minimising the volt-drop in the 12Volt cables means you get more power out of the inverter. See also the article on Inverters.
Current Capacity of Cables – Short runs
As mentioned before, current-carrying capacity is not usually the limiting factor in 12Volt systems, 9 times out of 10 it's the Volt-Drop that will trip us up first. But for short runs, about a metre or so, it is worth also checking that the cable can carry the maximum current.
A word of caution: some cable brands use a rating of 60% duty cycle for 5 minutes for their larger cable sizes[*]. The huge currents in these cables are capable of doing real damage if they're used continuously at this rating – so please beware! To keep everyone safe, just make sure that the current rating is for continuous use at a sensible, practical temperature like 30°C.
Chassis-earth, or not?
It is always better to run a twin cable directly back to the battery rather than picking up the negative from the chassis. The problem is not with conducting the current – the chassis is a huge chunk of metal so it conducts current very nicely. It's getting a reliable connection to the chassis that is the challenge. Not many of us would be prepared to angle-grind the chassis back to bare metal, through the paint and rust-proofing, and then weld or braze a lug or bolt onto the chassis. Far easier to simply run the positive and negative in a twin-cable direct to the battery, and just avoid this common fault-point altogether.
Fuses & Circuit-breakers
And while we are talking about connecting onto the battery, Australian Standards says that any connection must have a fuse or circuit-breaker in the positive line, close to the battery. The battery is capable of many hundreds of Amps but the cables to our fridges and lights are not. So we always size the fuse or breaker to be smaller than the cable's maximum current.
Marine Cable
Marine cable is also stocked by the better retailers, and this includes a tinned layer over the copper in a normal Automotive Cable.
This tinned-copper protects the cable from the "green-death" corrosion that so easily creeps into the cable strands in a marine environment. It is usually more expensive, but not by much, so if there is any chance of sea-water or even sea-spray getting to the cable, it's well worth the investment.
Cable Lugs
This is the only way to connect a cable properly to terminals on 12Volt equipment or the battery. For the smaller cable sizes up to about 6mm auto, plastic crimp-lugs are the go, and they can be soldered or crimped. And a hammer is not a crimping tool – c'mon, they're not that expensive.
For the larger cable sizes, like 9mm and up, the best is a proper tinned-copper lug. It makes a really good connection onto the larger size cables, and again it can be crimped or soldered. Soldering requires some serious heat for the bigger sizes, and patience, whereas crimping needs a proper hex-crimper. And again, a vice is not a crimper – rather find a mate or a tame auto-sparkie who will do it properly for you. Especially on the larger cables, it's just not worth the risk.
Cable Sizes – Conversion Table:
This lists most of the common sizes for Automotive cable available in Australia, and converts among the three different cable-sizing standards.
Automotive Cable mm | B&S (AWG) | Cross-sectional area in mm² |
3 | 16 | 1.1 |
4 | 14 | 1.8 |
5 | 12 | 2.9 |
6 | 10 | 4.6 |
9 | 8 | 7.7 |
14 | 6 | 13.5 |
20 | 4 | 20.3 |
25 | 3 | 26.5 |
35 | 2 | 32.1 |
50 | 0 | 50.0 |
70 | 00 | 64.2 |
B&S figures are closest equivalent |
[*] For this cable-brand, rated at 100 Amps seems to mean it can only take 100 Amps for 60% of the time, and only for 5 minutes. What happens after 5 minutes is anyone's guess. I reckon just go for the continuous rating and be safe.
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20 Comments
Hello Alistair,
Maybe you can help me here please.
Vehicle is a 2010 Range Rover, used for overlanding. I have. Redarc Redvision with a manager 30. I know my way around a 12v system etc, it’s working great, onshore power, solar, all good, and charges my 200ah lithium aux battery.
But, when I try to get the vehicle to charge it, no go.
I have a 16mm sq 110a cable. Start battery, to 60A midi fuse, to a redarc SBI 12, solenoid that turns on and off at 12.7 to stop the start draining, cable is 3 meters run to a power pole anderson plug, then to the manager 30. I have checked everything works, voltage, 14.6 at the battery, fuse, SBI turns on at 12.7, and output of that is 14.7. The power pole is 14.5-7.
On the manager 30, the monitor will never ever see more than 11.5V.
I’ve checked everything, many times, tightened all grounds, which goes through a bus to the shunt.
For the life of me, I can’t fathom why the system will not “see” 14.7 volts.
All connections are crimped, using hydraulic crimped, using the correct lugs. 🤷🏼♂️
Someone 🙏
Hi Mark,
Wow – this sounds like a really curly one – and from your detailed descriptions I can tell you know your way around a 12Volt system.
In my experience, the culprit turns out to be something really simple too – for many years I worked with a really clever auto-sparkie and we’d often sit for hours trying to track down a fault – measuring, thinking, suggesting, measuring again – and sometimes we’d have to come back the next day and try again.
There’s nothing in your setup that immediately stands out either – everything seems fine.
The only thing I can think of is that you’re losing an earth (-) connection somewhere – the redarc wiring diagram has a whole heap of earth connections, and maybe a gremlin has crept in there, especially if you’re using chassis-earth (see the bit about that in the blogpost). Maybe try taking an independent earth (-) wire to each one of those in turn, and see if anything shows up.
The only other tip I have is… patience, mate! Give yourself time to think – and try anything that comes to mind – even if it seems stupid or impossible.
You’ll get there!
Cheers,
Alistair
Hi , Thank you if you can help me ? I did install a solar pannel net work , on my Motor Vessel
SP 900W to charge 2 x 150 Amp lithium batteries ,
Now I want to use those batteries to run a portable fridge 60 W 6 Amp ,
I did install an electric cable 6 mm / 7 meter + 2,5 mm / 1 m + 10 cm connection to cigar plug ,
My fridge start / green light the after 30 seconds , the light turn orange and the fridge stop >’
I do not know why …
How can I connect the different section cable together to avoid any loss of voltage ?
Thank you
Michel
Hi Michel,
You certainly have enough solar to run the fridge – 900W is great – but the distance from battery to fridge is quite long, so going to a thicker cable will probably be necessary (the blog has a description of what happens with thin cables under “Volt Drop and Fridges”).
A good quality 6mm cable should be okay, but it’s right on the edge of what we really want, so going to a thicker cable will pay off in terms of peace of mind.
However the big problem is the short section of 2.5mm cable – even though it’s only a metre long, it’s dropping almost as much voltage as the 7 metre section – surprising but true!
It may be tricky to get a large cable onto the cigar lighter but again, it’ll pay you back by behaving itself… (or could you eliminate the cigar lighter altogether?).
The other thing is the fridge has its own lead, and that will also have some volt-drop, so your cables need to add as little as possible to that.
So I’m afraid the short answer is going to be: thicker cable!
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Alistair
Wanting to put Anderson pluses at rear of ute. Ford say 6mm is fine. I want larger to overcome volt loss issues. Will be connecting to caravan with 416 amp hours of lithium. 50/50 dc to dc.
What size cable should I make them use
Hi Brett,
First off – you’re heading the right direction mate – when it comes to cable, bigger is definitely better!
And second – a 6mm cable will only handle 38 Amps – not enough!
I’m assuming you’re going to use the standard 50 Amp Anderson but I’m not quite sure about that 50/50 dc-dc – is this 50 Amp output or input? If it’s 50 Amp output, then you’ll need to go to the bigger 125 Amp Anderson plugs, because the input amps will be more than the 50A Anderson can handle.
The minimum cable size I’d go with is 8mm, which is 8AWG and rated for 59Amps. If you really want to minimise losses then going with 6AWG is the way to go – and that will take you all the way to 82 Amps capacity.
This should be enough to get you going ok – and just make sure they put in circuit breakers or fuses close to each battery too.
Hope this helps!
Cheers,
Alistair
I am looking at running a 6AWG cable from the cranking battery under the bonnet, to a DCDC Charger in the rear to charge a lithium battery there. The DCDC Charger says it will draw 40A max and the calculator says a drop of 0.4 over 4m. I’ll need to put a 50A maxi fuse on the positive near the cranking battery. Issue i am wondering is where the DCDC charger will detect that voltage drop, and whether the inline fuse will add to the voltage drop. Not sure on a butt splice or my usual method of twisting the wires together and soldering them. I have sort of considered Anderson plugs.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Hi Matt,
Well I’d have to say you’re doing so much right, not sure you need my help!
But ok, let me confirm – you’ve chosen the right size cable for the job, you’ve got your volt-drop nice and low, and your fuse is correctly sized for the cable and expected current into the DC-DC charger – all good!
Your question about the DC-DC charger – yes, it’ll easily compensate for the volt-drop in the cable and the (tiny) volt-drop across the fuse. And about the butt-splice – that’s ok if you’ve got a proper professional crimper (pliers are a no-no!) – but I really like your “usual method” which includes soldering – there’s no better way (imho) to join cables in a way that works in the harsh environment of a vehicle (bumps, vibration, dust, moisture, etc.).
Anderson plugs are good, very good in fact – but only really needed if you want to connect and disconnect your DC-DC charger (e.g. between vehicles).
So, hope this helps.
Cheers,
Alistair
Nick replied to Alistair:
Hey Alistair!
I actually managed to fix the problem. I originally had the system grounded from the 200ah battery. I moved the ground cable to the -p side of the shunt and everything seems to be running smoothly!
I really do appreciate the time in your response and if it wasn’t for this blog I wouldn’t of stumbled across the solution.
Legend man, cheers.
Hey Nick,
Congrats man! – so glad you managed to find the problem, and then fix it! – I reckon that makes you the legend…
Cheers,
Alistair
Yo dude!
Got a 12v set-up, 200ah lithium, ctek charger, 160w solar, breakers on all cables with a renogy monitor and a fuse box. Im runninga kings 45l fridge a 200w inverter and 1500w inverter from time to time. Battery has completely died and fully charged 100% so I know the battery monitor has been set.
Volt drop is my problem. I have bought bigger cables for the entire system however from the Battery I have 2awg positive and 0awg negative (didn’t realise I bought the wrong size at the time and couldn’t return it so I installed it anyway). Would that be the reason for the volt drop?.
Hi Nick,
Sounds like a nice system – and I think you’re right about volt-drop being your problem – well at least part of the problem – because it also comes down to the length of the cables. Mixing 0awg with 2awg is not a problem though, but that 1500w inverter will push both those cables close to their current limit, so they’d need to be really short, just a couple of metres max from battery to inverter input.
As far as solar is concerned, you’d probably need a bit more if you’re free camping for more than a day or two – again that would depend on how sunny it is.
Without knowing your exact setup it’s hard to know how to advise any further than that – is there maybe a good auto-sparkie in your neck of the woods who could help out?
Cheers,
Alistair
Hi mate, that was a good read.
I was wondering if you could answer something for me please?
If i have 6awg 12v wire that is manufacturer rated to 82a, and a short 500mm run to an inverter the calculator says it’ll handle 150a at 90°C with 0.24% voltage drop.
Can i run 150a or can the 82a of the wire not be exceeded?
Thankyou
Hi Matt,
This is a bit of a curly one – but a great question to ask!
Keeping the 12V DC cables short is a great start – 0.5 meters is really good.
As for 6AWG, this is normally rated at 50-60 Amps, so the manufacturer’s rating of 82A is a bit optimistic – maybe there’s an asterisk somewhere saying this is only rated for x number of minutes?
Anyway, to handle 150A safely you’ll need at least 3AWG cable. This will reduce your volt-drop to about 0.1V which also means you’ll lose very little power in the DC cables (about 15W loss, or 1% of the inverter’s power output) – all good!
Hope this makes sense.
Cheers,
Alistair
G’day Alistair,
Does the “cable length” include, in my case, the fridge lead? The fridge I have just purchased has a lead that is a little under 4 metres long! If my cable length is 6 metres for example, then I should add another 4 metres for the length of the fridge cable, which would give me a total of 10 metres! Is this correct?
Kind regards,
Craig.
Hi Craig,
Sorry mate, the answer is yes…
The upside of this is that the solution is (relatively) simple – just choose your cable thick enough to overcome this volt-drop. That way you’ll smile every time you use your fridge!
Cheers,
Alistair
I’m getting 50% voltage drop, what could cause this?
Hi Mike,
Thanks for the question – and 50% is definitely way too high!
Volt-drop depends on two things – current in the cable, and cable resistance.
So either the cable is too skinny or it’s too long – both will increase its resistance.
And the current could also be too high for the cable, given its size and length.
Solutions? – well there are three things you could do:
– reduce the current in the cable (but this might not be feasible in your setup)
– reduce the length of the cable (and again this might not be feasible)
– increase the size of the cable (use the volt-drop calculator to help with this)
Hope this helps!
Cheers,
Alistair
Hi Nathan,
Congrats, you’re the first to ask a question on this blog post!
And yes, this calculator assumes you’re running a 2-core cable from the battery to your equipment. As mentioned in the article, running a single positive with chassis-earth is not recommended, first because it’s difficult to get a solid connection to the chassis, and then also making sure it doesn’t rattle loose while you’re travelling along.
Cheers,
Alistair
Does you calculator calculate one way length or does it assume 2 way length (positive and Negative back to the bank?)